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“The State of The Dead” – Part 2
(A Chat Transcript)

Keep reading, the conversation isn’t over yet. In the first section of this two-part transcript, we discussed what the Bible teaches about the state of the dead. Of course, in all things concerning Scriptural truth, Satan also has his errors at hand to confuse, divide and render ineffective the earnest workers for Yahshua. In these days of the gathering, the people are promised, “one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel.” (Phil 1:27). The Christians of the last hour will have every doctrine, every teaching true, as true as it is in Christ. There will be no compromising, “Whatever you believe is fine.” There will be a mighty, unified movement, and the people of the world will behold the followers of Christ, moving in power and authority, and will be forced to declare, “They are the sons of God indeed!”

The state of the dead is just one piece of the larger puzzle, but it is as essential for understanding being “dead in Christ,” in order to live with Him as any other least teaching of the sacred Scriptures.

David: Welcome back.
Rose: Thanks, David.
Rose: So where were we?
Rose: We finished up with Matthew... I think.
David: Okay.
David: And I just finished editing the first part.
Rose: How does it look?
David: Pretty good :)
Rose: Great.
David: All right, so let’s review real quick to make sure we’re on the same page...
Rose: Ok.
David: Man is created in the image of a three-part God.
David: He is Father, Son and Spirit.
David: We are Soul, Body and Spirit.
Rose: Right.
David: Now, you see there is one overlap there.
David: The Spirit is in both :)
Rose: Mmmm. Explain please?
David: Remember in John 17 where Christ prayed for His disciples?
David: He prayed to the Father that they may be one with Him, even as He (the Son) and the Father were one.
Rose: I’d like to go there real quick.
David: Sure....
David: Getting verse.
Rose: Ok..
David: John 17:22 is a nice summary of the concept.
Rose: Alright...

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.” (John 17:22)

Rose: Ok then, I have read that passage.
David: Great.
David: So you see, the way Christ and Yahweh were one was in the Spirit.
David: They have the same “Holy Spirit.”
David: Now, when a person accepts Christ, as we saw from Ezekiel 11, he also gets a “new Spirit.”
David: He becomes one with Christ and the Father.
Rose: Okay.
David: Now, as man is three parts, we looked at what happened to those three parts when we die.
David: Or, in these last days, I should say... IF we die :)
Rose: Right :)
Rose: Not all will be dead at that time?
David: No, Paul writes some are “alive and remain,” to be caught up into the air when Christ comes back.
Rose: Right and does it not say that the ones in the graves shall rise first?
David: Yes.
David: (nods.)
David: That’s Resurrection day.
Rose: Were is that found?
Rose: Forgot.
David: 1 Th 4:15-17
Rose: Okay then.
David: Shall I wait for you to read it?
Rose: Please...only be a few min.
David: Of course :)

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Th 4:15-17)

Rose: Well very good...I was just about to say the dead in Christ shall rise first.
David: Yes :)
David: Okay, so that covers the review in its entirety, just about...
Rose: Did not want to quote untruth with out being able to back it up :)
David: The body and soul perish at death, and the spirit goes back to God who gave it.
David: (nods.)
David: At resurrection, the Spirit and body are reunited, and as the bodies themselves come forth, restored – so is the soul likewise present.
Rose: That’s amazing......Just like he did with Adam and Eve from dust and ashes :)
David: The dead, as Solomon and David wrote, know nothing, and therefore it seems to the individual that he dies, and the next the he knows, he’s looking at Christ.
David: Right, exactly.
Rose: So I have another thought...
David: Sure.
Rose: I remember a quote that said...
Rose: From ashes to ashes, from dust to dust.
Rose: That, I believe, is what it is talking about?
David: Yes, the body.
Rose: Right.
David: So are we clear enough on the state of the dead?
David: Because now we can look at certain scriptures that seem to contradict that :)
Rose: Yes, I believe so.
Rose: Of course there is lol
David: All right, let me find the first one...
Rose: Okay, then.
David: There is one case in the NT and one in the Old, but by looking at it in light of Ecclesiastes and the other scriptures, we can easily see what they are saying.
David: Here is the passage:
David: Luke 16:20-31. It’s a few verses, so take your time with it.
Rose: Okay.

“And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.’ Then he said, ‘I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ Abraham saith unto him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.’ And he said unto him, ‘If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.’” (Luke 16:20-31)

Rose: Working on it, but confused on something...
David: On what?
Rose: “And he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’”
David: Yes...
Rose: Who is this referring to?
David: The rich man in “hell.”
Rose: Ok.
Rose: I thought so.
David: (nods.)
David: When you read it all we can better discuss it, and it’s meaning :)
Rose: Ok, moving on....
Rose: One moment – and that one being raised from the dead must have been Lazarus?
Rose: God said, ‘Come forth.”
David: Well, that’s the name used.
David: But it wasn’t the same person.
Rose: I see.
Rose: (listens.)
David: Yahshua’s friend Lazarus was not a beggar :)
Rose: Ok.
David: I know... that confuses a few people.
David: Are you done with the entire passage also?
Rose: Oh, yes I am.
David: Okay :)
David: So what do you think about it?
Rose: Interesting...
David: (nods.)
David: Seems to conflict, huh?
Rose: Just a bit.
David: Well, if you read it, you’ll see that this story doesn’t really make sense, except as a parable.
Rose: Right.
David: Christ was showing the importance of charity, of feeding the poor etc.
David: And He purposely used symbolism that wasn’t representative of reality so we wouldn’t get confused as to the nature of heaven and hell :)
Rose: Kinda shows that our worldly riches cannot inherit the eternal riches in heaven.
David: Right.
David: For example..
David: The “good man” didn’t go to Heaven, did he?
David: He went to “Abraham’s bosom.” That’s a concept that would have been familiar to the Jews.
Rose: Could we expound on that a bit?
David: Sure.
David: In verses like 24, and 29 and 30... Abraham is speaking as if he were Yah Himself.
David: In this parable, he obviously represents the Father. He’s even called “Father Abraham.”
Rose: Ok...
David: Some have said that “Abraham’s Bosom” represents the world of the dead where we wait for resurrection.
David: However, that’s an even worse problem.
David: Because the “bad man” in this same state is being tormented.
David: That’s a real flaw in reasoning, because what happens when a man dies?
David: As we saw before, his “thoughts perish.”
David: There can be no joy OR torment in death.
David: If you read Revelation...
Rose: (listens...)
Rose: Which part?
Rose: In its entirity?
David: No :)
David: Rev 20:15
David: Just that verse for now.
Rose: Ok let me go look.

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Rev 20:15)

Rose: Whew...
Rose: Hot stuff....
Rose: lol
David: Yeah :)
David: But the relevant point here is that in both books that deal with this... Daniel and Revelation...
David: We see the wicked are cast into the lake of fire after judgment.
David: And at the same time, on the DAY of judgment.
David: In other words, no one is suffering anywhere NOW in death.
David: To use this parable to counter actual teachings on the judgment of Yah is going to lead to real problems in doctrine...
Rose: I see, okay.
Rose: Example?
David: There are the verses I was telling you about, Rev 20 and Daniel 12.
David: They tell you exactly what will happen... flames AFTER judgment.
Rose: Could you expand on that last statement, i guess?
Rose: Hmmm, not sure what im asking.
David: You meant about the nature of parables?
David: In other words, would Christ use something that wasn’t 100% true to show a point?
Rose: Right.
David: I thought that might be your question :)
David: As always, the Bible has the answer.
Rose: True :)
David: Read the passage – Judges 9:8-15.
Rose: Alright then....one moment.

“The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, ‘Reign thou over us.’ But the olive tree said unto them, ‘Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?’ And the trees said to the fig tree, ‘Come thou, and reign over us.’ But the fig tree said unto them, ‘Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?’ Then said the trees unto the vine, ‘Come thou, and reign over us.’ And the vine said unto them, ‘Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?’ Then said all the trees unto the bramble, ‘Come thou, and reign over us.’ And the bramble said unto the trees, ‘If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.’” (Judges 9:8-15)

Rose: Okay then, have read that passage.
Rose: Who is this olive tree representing?
David: I don’t really remember the details :)
Rose: Ok.
David: But the point is just this: do trees generally... speak?
Rose: Nope.
Rose: Hope not! lol
David: (laughs.)
David: Right, so here we see a parable used to demonstrate a point...
David: That wasn’t accurate in details for the sake of the meaning.
Rose: Right... the day a tree talks to me as I pass by is the day I hope I’m in heaven lol cuz ill faint :)
David: (laughs.)
David: All right, so we can see that the passage in Luke was a parable about charity only...
David: Not an actual teaching on the state of the dead.
Rose: Right.
David: If it was, the Bible would indeed contradict Itself, and we’d have a bigger problem than whether or not trees speak.
Rose: (chuckles.)
Rose: Well some still do have a problem with the Bible.
Rose: But that is there problem, I suppose.
David: Yes, there really aren’t any contradictions, if one looks at it intelligently :)
Rose: Then do we have a duty to show them or do we have the duty to pray and let God open the eyes of there heart?
David: We can do both, of course.
Rose: As the Lord leads.
David: Right :)
David: Now, that is one passage that seems to contradict the state of the dead as the Bible shows it.
David: There is another.
David: Ready?
Rose: Sure :)
Rose: Yes I’m ready.
David: 1 Samuel 28:6-16
David: It goes on longer, but that is enough for our purposes :)
Rose: One moment :)

“And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, ‘Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.’ And his servants said to him, ‘Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.’ And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, ‘I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.’ And the woman said unto him, ‘Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?’ And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, ‘As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.’ Then said the woman, ‘Whom shall I bring up unto thee?’ And he said, ‘Bring me up Samuel.’ And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, ‘Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.’ And the king said unto her, ‘Be not afraid: for what sawest thou?’ And the woman said unto Saul, ‘I saw gods ascending out of the earth.’ And he said unto her, ‘What form is he of?’ And she said, ‘An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.’ Then said Samuel, ‘Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?’” (1 Sam 28:6-16)

Rose: All right, I’m finished.
David: Good.
David: What impression do you get from that?
Rose: Not sure, to be honest :)
Rose: It’s contradicting.
David: Okay, let’s start from the beginning.
Rose: Okay.
David: First of all, the Urim and prophets would not speak to Saul.
Rose: (nods.)
David: Those are the instruments Yah uses to speak to His people back then.
Rose: Ok.
David: But they weren’t answering... in other words, God was NOT speaking to Saul anymore.
Rose: Wondered about that.
David: (nods.)
David: If you keep that first and simple fact in mind, the rest of the verses will make more sense.
Rose: Ok.
David: Now, is going to a witch a good idea when trying to learn the will of the Father?
David: Can light have anything to do with darkness?
Rose: No.
David: Right... and if you look at the passage, even the woman of Endor was surprised when she saw the “ghost.”
David: A lot going on there she wasn’t expecting... If raising the dead was something she did all the time, she’d not have been so shocked.
Rose: Right.
Rose: Makes sense to me.
David: Okay, already we saw two problems with this.
David: Here is a bigger one...
Rose: Ok.
David: Read verse 14 again.
Rose: Ok.
Rose: Sure....

“And he said unto her, ‘What form is he of?’ And she said, ‘An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.” (1 Sam 28:14)

Rose: Alright.....
David: Okay, so you see... the thing is not called “Samuel,” until verse 14, and then... Saul “perceives,” or gets the impression that it’s him.
David: After that, the passage uses the name.
David: But as for the woman, all she says is she sees “gods” coming out of the earth in verse 13.
Rose: Right....
David: Also, reading the words of “Samuel” himself... he said (verse 15), “Why did you bring me up.”
David: “Why did you disturb my rest.”
Rose: Ok.
David: Now personally, I don’t think that was Samuel at all, but...
David: Even if it WAS, he came UP out of the earth (verse 13) not down from Paradise or Heaven or wherever.
David: He was dead...
Rose: Right.
David: Even Satan knew better than to try to fool Saul by saying Samuel was coming back from Heaven.
Rose: (nods.)
David: The reason I say I don’t think it was even Samuel in the first place is two reasons...
David: Firstly, God wasn’t speaking to Saul.
David: Not before, and not during... His “prophets” are included in the list of ways He was NOT talking to Saul.
Rose: True.
David: Secondly, we judge it by its fuits.
Rose: Fruits?
David: Yes. As a result of that awful night, Saul lost all hope and killed himself a day or so later.
Rose: Wow.
David: Yeah, if you read the rest of that book, it’s pretty grim.
Rose: Question?
David: Sure :)
Rose: So do you think he gave up to soon?
Rose: Seems like God was testing him.
David: God may certainly have allowed that to happen, yes...
David: But Saul didn’t repent, he gave up.
Rose: Right.
Rose: He made his choice not to follow Christ.
David: At the same time... if it was a test... God wouldn’t have lied to him in this way:
David: The “Samuel” there told Saul that Yah was now his enemy.
Rose: God lied to him?
Rose: I didn’t think God lied, bro.
David: Exactly :)
Rose: I’m not sure I understand that.
David: Look at it this way: the only way this story makes sense, is if that “Samuel” apparition was a deception from Satan.
David: To steal Saul’s hope. Make sense now?
Rose: I see, you were getting me to see that lol
David: Right :)
Rose: ha ha
Rose: Caught it :)
David: But the fact remains, whether it was the real Samuel or not...
David: He came UP from death, not DOWN from Heaven.
David: This passage doesn’t contradict the state of the dead as taught in the Bible either :)
David: So we see, again, no contradiction.
David: The dead are truly dead, their thoughts perished till resurrection.
David: Still clear on that? :)
Rose: But of course....lol
David: (laughs.)

{Further study has brought additional, and one might say conclusive, evidence on this passage to light. In the Chronicler’s version of the events described here, which was written with more of an eye to spiritual truths than the human standpoint, we read this verse: “So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against Yahweh, [even] against the word of Yahweh, which he kept not, and also for asking [counsel] of [one that had] a familiar spirit, to enquire [of it].” (1 Ch 10:13) Even the casual reader will notice that several of those words, those in [brackets], were added by translators and did not appear in the manuscripts. Thus the priestly version of the events surrounding the death of Saul actually reads, “So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against Yahweh, even against the word of Yahweh, which he kept not, and also for asking of a familiar spirit, to enquire.” Saul was not in transgression for going to one that had a familiar spirit so much as for speaking to the “familiar spirit” itself. Nowhere else in the Bible is the Hebrew word “owb” used to indicate a person, but rather the actual spirit. Clearly, this entity was not Samuel according to the Biblical author. Whereas Kings records the incident from Saul’s perspective, this “second witness” tells us exactly what was going on.}

David: Now, there’s just one more passage that might possibly contradict the Word on this :)
David: It’s shorter than the others, though.
David: Here... Mark 9:4-5.
David: Actually, start with verse 2.

“And after six days Jesus taketh with Him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and He was transfigured before them. And His raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. And Peter answered and said to Jesus, ‘Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.’” (Mark 9:2-5)

Rose: Done deal..
David: Right, but now...
David: Didn’t Moses die?
David: If he’s dead, and the Bible teaches the dead know nothing, how is it he is there with Christ?
Rose: Eeek :)
David: (laughs.)
Rose: Did he rise?
David: (smiles.) Very good, let’s take a look at that.
Rose: Ok.
David: Read Deuteronomy 34:5 & 6
Rose: Alright then.

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.” (Deu 34:5,6)

Rose: This doesn’t have much to do with it, but it is free of charge lol: He was only 120 years old when he died. Back then that wasn’t that old .....today I know ppl that have been 123 before they passed.
David: (smiles.)
Rose: Oh, I’m done.
Rose: lol
David: (chuckles.)
David: All right, well here’s the thing... there was a big deal about the body of Moses.
David: God Himself buried him, and for two reasons.
David: 1) He didn’t want the body worshipped as an idol.
David: And 2) It wasn’t gonna be there for long.
David: Read Jude 1:9
Rose: Ok.

“Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke thee.’” (Jude 1:9)

Rose: Read it.
David: Right.
David: So you see again... a contention over Moses’ body.
David: Something’s going on there :)
Rose: Seems like Michael (or maybe, in my opinion, Satan) was trying to steal his body. But I’m unclear on this.
David: Well, to be honest, Jude doesn’t make it perfectly clear either :)
David: But this is true regardless: Moses was dead, then all of a sudden, he is there standing with Christ on the mount of transfiguration.
David: And if you read passages like Mat 22:32...
Rose: Ok, Ill just do that...
David: Okay.

“‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Mat 22:32)

David: Yah is a God of the living, NOT a God of the dead... Maybe Moses wasn’t the only one resurrected already either :)
Rose: Ok done :)
David: Right.
David: Now if you look at Elijah... you read in 2 Kings that he went straight to Heaven without dying.
David: Unlike Samuel, who’s probably still waiting for the Day of resurrection.
Rose: Okay.
David: So of all the people in Heaven (if there are many), why were Elijah and Moses chosen to be the two to stand with Christ?
Rose: They were chosen?
David: Yes, but “why” is the question :)
Rose: Not sure.
David: Here, there will be 2 types of redeemed in Heaven.
David: Those that are resurrected, and those that are translated, right?
David: Either you died, or you didn’t die :)
Rose: Yes.
Rose: Yes.....was unsure of the quiestion.
David: (nods.) Now here you see two people standing with Christ.
David: One who died, and one who didn’t die.
David: Moses and Elijah are representing ALL the redeemed
Rose: As an example to us all....maybe
David: Yes, exactly.
David: But in order for him to be a representative of the resurrected... Moses would have had to have been what?
Rose: Resurrected?
David: (laughs.)
David: Right.
David: Now, the Bible doesn’t explicitly SAY he was, but...
David: With all the talk about his body, and the example on the mount...
David: It’s a much more logical conclusion than to say all the OTHER passages about the dead really being dead are wrong.
David: At least, I think so :)
Rose: Makes ya think...
David: Sure does :)
David: When God says you’ll return to dust when you die, He means it.
Rose: Yup, He does.
David: But fortunately, that’s not the end of the story.
David: Bodily we become dust, just as He said, but if we are dead in Christ...
Rose: (listens)
David: We will be raised, just as He was :)
David: And we won’t be “coming back” to get our bodies.
David: We’ll be awakening to life everlasting.
David: If you look at all the saints that died in Christ....
David: Dan 12:2, Acts 7:60, 1 Cor 15:20, 1 Th 4:13 etc.

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Dan 12:2)

“And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, ‘Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.’ And when he had said this, he fell asleep.” (Acts 7:60)

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.” (1 Cor 15:20)

“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.” (1 Th 4:13)

Rose: Done.
David: All right.
David: See, the dead in Christ “sleep in the earth.”
David: Waiting to be raised.
David: They aren’t already anywhere, not heaven, not hell.
David: Their thoughts are perished, here Old and New Testaments agree fully.
Rose: We don’t need our mortal bodies any more, do we?
David: You are asking about whether or not we need our mortal bodies at resurrection?
Rose: Well yes.....
David: The answer for that is in 1 Cor 15:53,54.
Rose: Ok.

“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, ‘Death is swallowed up in victory.’” (1 Cor 15:53,54)

David: In the verses just above, Paul writes that corrupt flesh and blood cannot inherit Heaven.
David: So... we’ll be changed.
David: We put on new, immortal, incorruptible bodies.
David: Yes, they will be different, but just like Christ’s... they will be real :)
Rose: Behold the old passeth and all things become new.....forgot it exactly..
David: Old things pass away, yes.
David: The “old man” is dead and the “new man” in Christ lives.
David: But that’s talking about the inner man in that specific passage.
David: Still, the principle is the same.
David: In Christ, we become different, changed.
Rose: Yes.
David: But not less real... MORE real :)
Rose: Right.
David: (smiles.)
David: Well, I think that those are all the “dissenting passages” people use to teach the “immortality of the soul” and a current, ongoing torment for sinners and things like that.
David: But if you have any questions about this or anything else, please do ask.
Rose: I will :)
David: Okay :)

[End of Transcript 2]

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